Steve Bowman - Interview With a Nashville Producer

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March, 2010

Interview With a Nashville Producer - Jim Reilley

The trick to getting session work in Nashville is knowing lots of producers. Producers (or music directors) assemble the players for each tracking session and are the gatekeepers to the world of studio work. So what are producers interested in when it comes to drumming? What do they want from a drummer?

Though there are some basic truths (be on time, play well, get along with others), the answers to the questions differ slightly depending on with whom you work. Each producer's musical influences and personal experience alters and shapes the drum sounds and parts they want for their tracks.

With that in mind I decided to interview some Nashville producers on the subject of drums and drumming. Which drummers did they grow up listening to? What are their favorite drum tracks? Do they have any particular brands or sizes of drums they like to use in the studio? What about cymbals? What about miking? What do they appreciate from drummers they work with and what do they wish drummers were better at? And most importantly, what do they look for when hiring a drummer?

One of the Nashville producers I love to work with is Jim Reilley. Jim was a member of a critically acclaimed band called the New Dylans. The New Dylans made seven records and toured all over the country from the mid 80's until they broke up in 1998, and when the band ended Jim moved to Nashville and worked for eight years as a staff writer for Curb Publishing. Since then he has been producing other artists and releasing his own solo albums.

Besides being a great writer, player, and musician, Jim is also a kind of rock and roll musicologist. He's the guy you call when you're wondering "Who played bass?" on a particular song or album. Jim's specialty is 60's pop, but then you get to talking and realize he knows the 70's pretty well too. And the 80's. And 90's...

When Jim needs a drummer he has his pick of regulars. Among others, he uses Ken Coomer of Wilco fame, Nashville rock-star Rich Redmond, and me, too, for certain types of sessions. Jim is always a pleasure to work with. On his sessions the players are always great and the music is often really good, too.

Jim and I met at a local Nashville coffee shop and had a fast, bang-bang conversation about everything drums:

SB: Jim. I know you love drumming.

JR: I do love drumming. I love drummers. The most important thing in a recording is the drums. Everything is important but if you're talking about a band, the drummer has to be the most important thing.

SB: As the saying goes, "If the drum track is solid everything else sounds intentional."

JR: Right. And if the drum track is terrible the whole track is terrible.

SB: So who are some of the drummers you listened to growing up?

JR: Well, you'd have to start with Ringo.

SB: What is your favorite Ringo track?

JR: I think my favorite Ringo track of all time is a version of "All My Loving" from an album the BBC put out a couple years ago called "Live at the BBC". The Beatles got back to England after their first trip to America and did a show on the BBC in March of that year, like 64, right before they started working on "Hard Day's Night". Anyway, "All My Loving" is one of my favorite early Beatles' songs, and on the record and on Ed Sullivan and all the other stuff from that time it was swung, right?

SB: Ya. "All My Loving" has that bounce.

JR: Well, on this record, "Live at the BBC", he plays it straight, with open hi-hats. And it ROCKS! It's like a totally different drummer's interpretation.

SB: I've never heard that version.

JR: I have to play it for you. I don't know why he changed it, and I love the song the way it swung, too, you know? But when you A/B the two, the straight one is ten times more powerful. Ten times more important. That's my favorite Ringo track.

SB: Interesting.

JR: "Rain" is another one I love. It is a great drum track from top to bottom and I think it's one of his favorites, too, because he's talked about it in interviews. No one can ignore Ringo's importance.

SB: What about Charlie Watts?

JR: Nor can they ignore Charlie Watts.

SB: What is your favorite Watts track?

JR: Well, "Get off My Cloud" has that great riff in the beginning but I think my favorite Charlie Watts track is "Around and Around" off the album "Love You Live". That's one of the best drum tracks I've ever heard.

SB: How about John Bonham?

JR: My first Zeppelin album was Physical Graffiti on 8-track and I loved "Kashmir" of course. I also liked "Boogie with Stu" for pure groove and I think my favorite Bonham of all time is "Wonton Song" from that same record. He rocks, he swishes, he dances - all in one track! Brilliant!

SB: I know you are a huge Beach Boys fan.

JR: I'm a huge Beach Boys fan and Dennis Wilson did the live stuff, you know, because Hal Blaine was "the guy" on all the Wrekking Crew sessions. You gotta hear Dennis Wilson live on "Darlin' " off "Beach Boys Live In London". And also, on a CD/DVD called "Good Timin': Live at Knebworth". I think it was 79' or 80, right before he died, and you should hear his playing on "Be True To Your School". He is just barely hanging on at that point, but the tom work and the POWER he plays with is just so inspiring. After watching those videos it's clear that he was the backbone of that band. I mean, Brian Wilson was the genius of Rock and roll, but the Beach Boys really keyed off Dennis Wilson's playing in their live show.

SB: What about Hal Blaine?

JR: Hal Blaine. I'm a huge 60's bubble gum pop fan and Hal Blaine played on so much of that. And everything he played on sounds amazing. From "Up, Up and Away", to the Partridge Family, and everything in between, including the Monkees! - who are my favorite band. Hal Blaine was the pulse of that era. He is as important as any player ever to me. One of the things I loved was how he fit with every band he played with. His drumming on "California Dreaming" is totally different than the stuff he did with the 5th Dimension, you know?

SB: And he worked with so many different artists.

JR: Yes. And there was a guy on the other side of the pond, Clem Cattini, who was the British version of Hal Blaine. He played on "It's Not Unusual" - Tom Jones, and the Kinks "You Really Got Me", and "Get It On". He played on all those old british pop songs, working sessions with Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones, you know?

SB: Wow.

JR: And another guy I loved from that time was a drummer named Mickey Jones. He was the guy who took over in Dylan's band when Levon got fed up. And he's also the guy on all those Trini Lopez and Johnny Rivers records. Johnny Rivers "Rocks the Folk" was my first album.

SB: Great era for drummers.

JR: Ya. One of the things I love about drummers from that time is that they played with power to get around the bad miking. They didn't bash, but played with power. Tom Jones "Promise Her Anything" - that is some power drumming with a huge band and bad miking. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention John Densmore of The Doors. He was absolutely brilliant!

At this point Neil Young comes on the speakers above our heads and Jim looks up and smiles.

JR: There's Kenny Buttrey on "Heart of Gold". I love this track for it's simplicity. There was an interview with Buttrey and he said Neil Young demanded that he play no cymbals in this song.

SB: I never noticed that. It has no cymbals.

JR: No cymbals until the very end. The last note!... THERE! He hit one on the last note because he had a great take and he knew Neil couldn't do anything about it.

SB: Ha.

JR: And it fits perfectly at the end, but Neil didn't want any cymbals on that track, and it worked really well.

SB: We haven't mentioned the soul drummers from that era. Who did you like there?

JR: Well, I love that Funk brothers stuff.

SB: Standing in the Shadows Of Motown?

JR: Everyone should watch "Standing in the Shadows Of Motown"! One of my favorite tracks from that era was that Cornelius Brothers & Sister Rose tune, "Too Late To Turn Back Now". It's an amazing drum track but it isn't credited.

SB: Really?

JR: No, but whoever played on that was great! And there were so many other great drummers from Motown, Stax, Muscle Shoals... I love that Philli Soul, too.

SB: What about the southern bands' drummers?

JR: We were talking about the Allman Bros. earlier, how those guys didn't get along at first. They didn't like each other but then they played and it was magical. "Trouble No More" from the "Fillmore East" album. That's such great live drumming. Somewhere in the middle, I don't know, it's like a 6, 7 minute song, but at some point Jaimoe and Butch accidentally turn the beat around together at the same time. They get lost - together - which is crazy.

SB: Wow.

JR: And I also loved Artimus Pyle.

SB: Skynyrd!

JR: When I was a kid and heard Skynyrd's live record "One More From The Road"... his playing on "Call Me The Breeze" is so wonderful. He's just flying like he is not even held to the ground, it's like he's dancing on the drums instead of hitting them. Lynyrd Skynyrd was as tight as a seven piece band could be and Artimus held it all together.

SB: Did you ever get into hard rock?

JR: I started to check out harder rock in the 70's. I loved Joey Kramer on "Write Me A Letter" from Aerosmith's first album.

SB: Oh.

JR: The drums on "Write Me A Letter" set the tone from the very beginning. Man, for me, that's as good as it gets. I like "Mama Kin", too, but "Write Me A Letter" was amazing.

SB: Did you ever see Aerosmith back then?

JR: No, but I had a vinyl live bootleg called "Look Homeward Angel". I don't even know if it made it to CD, but it was a performance from somewhere around 72', 73' in Hartford, Connecticut.

SB: Amazing.

A "Band" track comes out over the speakers and Jim smiles again.

JR: I was lucky enough to play some shows opening for the Band and I got to sit on the side and see what Levon really does.

SB: What does he do?

JR: Well, it's amazing because he doesn't play a straight beat. He accents his vocal lines with his arms, and he's hitting as he's singing so the vocal ends up dictating his drum parts. But see, listen to this! Jim points up to the speaker. Here Rick Danko starts singing and it changes the complexion of the song. When Rick sings the track becomes more solid and when Levon sings it's loose again.

SB: I've never noticed that. He's a different drummer when he's singing.

JR: Ya, Don Henley's vibe is similar to that. The singing drummers groove so naturally.

SB: What about 80's drummers. Who stood out for you then?

JR: Well, AC/DC was huge.

SB: Any favorite Phil Rudd tracks?

JR: Ya. "Girls Got Rhythm". That is a purely rocking drum performance. Just four on the floor magic. The way he interplays with the guitar. The way they listen to eachother. It's so primal. Another one of my favorite 80's guys was Clem Burke.

SB: Blondie.

JR: Talk about powerhouse drumming, on "Dreaming"! The bass drum really sets the pulse on that tune.

SB: What about Alex Van Halen?

JR: I love Alex Van Halen, especially on the first two records. He's got a tone that is so recognizable. So unique! And the way he plays, he'd get that same tone on any kit. He's a monster.

SB: Did you ever listen to any Rush in the 80's?

JR: I liked early Rush. In fact, "All the World's A Stage" is still one of my favorite live albums. You have to be vital in a three piece band and Peart definitely contributes his share.

SB: Is there any one player that stands out today? Anybody new that you like?

JR: As far as drummers I really like lately, there's a guy named David Kemper on the last two Dylan Albums. He's on a track called "Summer Days" off "Love and Theft", and it's one of the best drum tracks I've heard in years.

SB: What do you like in a drummer when you are producing?

JR: I like a drummer to come in with some leadership. I love to be challenged on a call as a producer. I love when the drummer comes up with something I might not have come up with.

SB: Someone who will take charge.

JR: And also understand when to just listen, you know?

SB: Ya.

JR: Besides that I like versatility. I like a drummer who can play behind the beat when necessary, play in front of the beat when necessary, and never overplay. I'm not a fan of drummers who overplay. Also, I really love drummers who can tune their drums! A badly tuned drum set is the worst.

SB: Are there any types of drums or cymbals you like to use?

JR: I like vintage sounds and I'm a gear head in general so I love to research old kits and snares. Old kits have a nice vibe. The wood is older and they've been beaten more.

SB: Do you prefer any particular sized drums?

JR: I like small, focused kits with regular sized bass drums, like 22's or 24's. I'm not into those really big ones. And, personally, I like drummers with just a couple of toms. When I see more than that I worry they may be a showboat; someone I may not want to work with. It’s just my personal taste.

SB: What about cymbals?

JR: I like smaller cymbals, too. I'm not a fan of those old, giant cymbals that weigh 50 pounds. I like more splash than thud/crash, with a faster decay. I know many people prefer those big ones but I don't. I think it's from mixing records. Big cymbals seem to take up so much sonic space in the track. That being said, if you’re doing a sparse jazz piece and the track has room for it, then a big old turkish ride is sweet. It’s just a time and place thing.

SB: Depends on the track?

JR: Ya, and the drummer.

SB: Sure.

JR: I'm also a big fan of open hi-hats instead of ride cymbals. Sometimes when a drummer goes to the ride cymbal it feels as if the bottom drops out.

SB: That is interesting because as a drummer you're taught to go to the ride when you want to be your biggest.

JR: I know! Drummers are taught that the ride cymbal is more powerful but I don't agree.

SB: I think open hats are "bigger" than a ride cymbal, too. I tend to ride a crash when I want to be really "big".

JR: Ya, that works. It's important for the drummer and producer to be able to communicate those kind of ideas and get on the same page easily.

SB: Do you have any special mics or tricks for miking?

JR: Some engineers and producers get into different mics and techniques they swear by but I think you have to look at the drum, the room, and the player to decide what's best. Every variable affects the tone. Of course, some of my favorite music of all time is 60's ska, like the Skatellites, where they used one mic infront of the drums and it was from an old dictaphone machine. That was the only mic they had, and some of the drum sounds are amazing. I like miking the top and bottom of the snare. Nothing new really. Lots of times I just use the bottom, though, especially if the drummer isn't hitting that hard. There are a million ways to catch it but you have to start with a great sound.

SB: Do you prefer older music to new music?

JR: There is a lot of great music out today but there is also a tendency now for everything to be technically perfect and I liked it when the tracks used to breathe more. A common theme to all the songs I grew up listening to is that they would breathe.

SB: What do you mean by "breathe"?

JR: It's that unspoken human element, where the band is playing together and they feel a common heartbeat and can actually breathe as one unit, dancing around the beat but never losing it. It's like when you can almost feel the singer breathing and the band playing to it. Old jazz vocal records are full of that. Like Sinatra when he sang with a band. Check out Billie Holiday and listen to the band anticipate her delivery.

SB: Ya, I get that.

JR: In our quest to be so perfect and regimented we don't always have the luxury to wait for a beautiful track, so we just get it perfect to the click and move on.

Elton John's "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" comes on above us and Jim pauses to take it in.

JR: Nigel Ollson was so great with Elton John. A lot of people don't realize that those guys were touring so much that, for a lot of those classic records, Bernie Taupin would give Elton lyrics, Elton would write the song, and they'd record it that day. They were doing a song a day like that, and all the songs would be future classic hits.

SB: That's so crazy!

JR: Ya. And Nigel Ollson was a big part of that.

SB: Who are some of the drummers you like to work with on your sessions - besides ME, of course...

JR: Of course. Besides you, some of my favorite drummers to work with in Nashville are, in no particular order - Ken Coomer, Steve Gorman, Rich Redmond, Fenner Castner, Matt Crouse, Jerry Roe, Paul Deakin, Jeff Marino, Brad Pemberton, and Jerry Augustyniak, when I can fly him down.

SB: Great list. And that's Jerry Agustyniak from 10,000 Maniacs.

JR: Yes. And he's a drummer I really have to thank. If you hear him on that 1st Elektra album, "The Wishing Chair", most notably on cuts like "Back of the Moon" "Maddox Table" and "Can't Ignore the Train". He plays so well. Anyway, right after the Maniacs got back from recording that record, Jerry and John Lombardo (the original Maniacs' bassist) taught us studio 101 during one long weekend in Pittsburgh. Jerry's drumming was so propulsive and yet subtle at the same time, and he really helped me understand how important drums are on a recording.

SB: That was when you recorded the first New Dylans' album?

JR: Yes. And for my first recorded history, the bar was set pretty high for drums. Thank you, Jerry.

SB: Well. Jim, thank you for taking the time to talk with me about drums and drumming.

JR: Thank you, Steve. I enjoyed it. I really love great drumming and I'm lucky to work with a lot of great drummers here in Nashville.

Links:

http://www.jimreilley.com/

http://www.myspace.com/jimreilley

From the interview:

Ringo:

Regular version of "All My Loving" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZlXJcpqvag

Straight version from BBC show - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djlQBIaJmxY

"Rain" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTLJMSbEnn0